tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post113944626780694911..comments2024-03-04T03:40:11.172-05:00Comments on No rules. Just write.: Serial comma killersBrenda Coulterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13528691681455659296noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post-79338642690989199812009-11-12T22:51:43.311-05:002009-11-12T22:51:43.311-05:00Clearly, the title of the book was a deliberate mi...Clearly, the title of the book was a deliberate mistake and meant to grab attention, and it was a resounding success, as the pedants line up to cast aspersions and refuse to open the pages of the book for fear of contamination. Wake up, ladies and gentlemen - there is more to life than the serial comma, although I do insist on keeping it in its place.<br />GillianAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post-15510859484108663462009-02-16T22:05:00.000-05:002009-02-16T22:05:00.000-05:00Just wanted to clear up for everyone that Eats, Sh...Just wanted to clear up for everyone that Eats, Shoots & Leaves is a children's book about punctuation. The title is purposely mispunctuated as an example of why we need to use commas correctly -- if it's punctuated this way...we see a picture of a panda with a smoking gun leaving. It then proceeds to explain the correct way to use commas through this & other examples. There is a list of rules in the back. In fact, the full title is Eats, Shoots and Leaves: Why, Commas Really Do Make a Difference! Lynn Truss has another similar book called, The Girl's Like Spaghetti: Why, You Can't Manage without Apostrophes! and another called Twenty-Odd Ducks: Why, Every Punctuation Mark Counts. As a homeschooler, who is a stickler for grammar & punctuation, I love to use these books with my children who have very silly senses of humor & respond well to rules put in such a fun & logical style. You will have noticed the extra comma in each title changing the meaning. It is all very purposeful and to prove the point of the difference that proper & improper punctuation can make. Now, how she got her editors to leave all her punctuation marks in the places she put them is another great question!Natural5https://www.blogger.com/profile/02320312650703126419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post-26923729644436864042007-07-03T08:56:00.000-04:002007-07-03T08:56:00.000-04:00Warmest thanks, Martha. It is gratifying to see so...Warmest thanks, Martha. It <I>is</I> gratifying to see so many people placing the proper importance on serial commas.Brenda Coulterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13528691681455659296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post-42807050522594318562007-07-01T12:43:00.000-04:002007-07-01T12:43:00.000-04:00Right on, Brenda! Glad to see so many kindred spir...Right on, Brenda! Glad to see so many kindred spirits here.<BR/><BR/>My take on the serial comma is in a KPBS podcast here:<BR/><BR/>http://www.kpbs.org/radio/a_way_with_words;id=8702<BR/><BR/>Keep up the good work!Marthahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03564911490010244501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post-1163728129060819222006-11-16T20:48:00.000-05:002006-11-16T20:48:00.000-05:00You're very welcome, Nancy. I thought you had a gr...You're very welcome, Nancy. I thought you had a great page over there, so I just had to link.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for stopping by my blog.Brenda Coulterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13528691681455659296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post-1163649628950033502006-11-15T23:00:00.000-05:002006-11-15T23:00:00.000-05:00Hi, Katrina. I'm one of the authors of the Get It ...Hi, Katrina. I'm one of the authors of the Get It Write tip that is quoted above, and I have to take exception to your remark that the AP Style Book is used by "half of the book publishers in the U.S." I cannot find a single style book that does NOT advocate the use of the serial comma except for AP, and I don't know of any publisher outside of journalism who uses the AP. AP also advocates misuse of the colon. Shame on them for sacrificing clarity for the almighty dollar (saving space and ink!). Thanks for quoting us, Brenda! NancyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post-1157584235612654272006-09-06T19:10:00.000-04:002006-09-06T19:10:00.000-04:00Katrina, my publisher makes no such exception, so ...Katrina, my publisher makes no such exception, so I endeavor to keep <I>all</I> of my lists "simple."Brenda Coulterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13528691681455659296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post-1157391907771801122006-09-04T13:45:00.000-04:002006-09-04T13:45:00.000-04:00AP Style, the most common usage system for newspap...AP Style, the most common usage system for newspapers (and about half the book publishers in the U.S.) specifically says<B> not</B> to use a serial comma.<BR/><BR/>In printing, you save space whenever possible (conserving ink, paper <I>and</I> the typesetter's time). It all adds up.<BR/><BR/>However, I checked my latest <I>AP Stylebook </I>(2005), and it says skip the comma in a "simple" list. Hence your "macaroni and cheese" example would justify a comma even in AP Style.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post-1150484031259553942006-06-16T14:53:00.000-04:002006-06-16T14:53:00.000-04:00Three things...1. "...eats shoots and leaves." - T...Three things...<BR/><BR/>1. "...eats shoots and leaves." - This is how the sentence was supposed to be written regardless whether it was a full sentence or not. Therefore, there is no need for an Oxford comma either way. It's just a comma-typo that magically appeared. <BR/>2. Her book does use them, and has a chapter on why we use them. Your calendar must be from America and I'm sure the editors/writers had a ball taking them out just to spite her.<BR/>3. The Americans removed the Oxford/Harvard/series/serial comma back in the old days because it saved ink during the printing process. Sounds crazy I know. However, if you think of all the articles that would have several serial commas, multiply that by each article, multiplied by each paper, every day, and possibly a morning and afternoon copy...This all adds up. It’s ingenious in terms of innovative ways to "save on overhead", but disgusting when it comes to taking liberties with the English language. <BR/><BR/>I use it all the time. No question.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post-1139993836099937352006-02-15T03:57:00.000-05:002006-02-15T03:57:00.000-05:00As for "different than," it's wrong. "Different fr...<I>As for "different than," it's wrong. "Different from" is correct on both sides of the pond.</I><BR/><BR/>How interesting. I'd always understood that "different than" was accepted in the US. What good news, I can carry on using "different from" with my head held high!<BR/><BR/>(Hadn't noticed your earlier comment about yorkshire puds and cricket when I wrote my first comment ... I have now, heh heh heh :-)Nealhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05883276927180980793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post-1139832999678753922006-02-13T07:16:00.000-05:002006-02-13T07:16:00.000-05:00I can assure you that I've learned to love the ser...<I> I can assure you that I've learned to love the serial comma, and now always use it myself.</I><BR/><BR/>Well, that gives me another thing to admire about you, then. ;-)<BR/><BR/>As for "different than," it's wrong. "Different <I>from</I>" is correct on <I>both</I> sides of the pond.Brenda Coulterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13528691681455659296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post-1139824507928989612006-02-13T04:55:00.000-05:002006-02-13T04:55:00.000-05:00Hi BrendaIn a bit of a hurry this morning, so I ha...Hi Brenda<BR/><BR/>In a bit of a hurry this morning, so I haven't read all the comments, but just a quick follow-up to Marianne, who thought she remembered Bill Bryson saying it was a Brit thing. As a Brit, I can assure you that it is a US-UK thing. As a technial author, who is concerned with the need to remove any ambiguity for the boring stuff he has to write, and who has to attempt to write in US English, I can assure you that I've learned to love the serial comma, and now always use it myself. I still write colour (unless I'm at work), I still think that "different than" sounds odd, but I do think that last comma is essential for clarity.Nealhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05883276927180980793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post-1139717447464290182006-02-11T23:10:00.000-05:002006-02-11T23:10:00.000-05:00Sabin must not have been a lawyer.Clearly. I have ...<I>Sabin must not have been a lawyer.</I><BR/><BR/>Clearly. I have never accused an attorney of speaking English, but darn it, at least they know how to punctuate!<BR/><BR/>;-)Brenda Coulterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13528691681455659296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post-1139707543359514332006-02-11T20:25:00.000-05:002006-02-11T20:25:00.000-05:00From Hodges' Harbrace College Handbook, 1984 print...From Hodges' Harbrace College Handbook, 1984 printing, section 12c, page 136:<BR/><BR/>"The comma before the conjunction may be omitted in the series <I>a, b, and c</I> if there is no danger of misreading". <BR/><BR/>On the other hand, William A. Sabin appears to prefer the Oxford comma, but there are exceptions. He notes that when all items are connected by conjunctions including a series of two such as represented by <I>a and b</I>, as well as <I>a and b and c</I>, commas may be omitted. Sabin must not have been a lawyer ;-).<BR/><BR/>I guess when giants express their varying 'opinions', the rest of us suffer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post-1139613653797295432006-02-10T18:20:00.000-05:002006-02-10T18:20:00.000-05:00I will rememer to use serial commas. I will never ...<I>I will rememer to use serial commas. I will never forget again!</I><BR/><BR/>Thank you. I guess my work here is done.Brenda Coulterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13528691681455659296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post-1139546414228277132006-02-09T23:40:00.000-05:002006-02-09T23:40:00.000-05:00I'm dizzy from this conversation...but I will reme...I'm dizzy from this conversation...but I will remember to use serial commas. I will never forget again!Bonnie S. Calhounhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11769607640246518804noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post-1139526392057754702006-02-09T18:06:00.000-05:002006-02-09T18:06:00.000-05:00I kinda switch between using the serial comma and ...I kinda switch between using the serial comma and not. I'm wildly inconsistent with my commas, sometimes continuing a run-on sentence for <I>days</I> using 'and' between every item on my list.<BR/><BR/>Of course, I try to replicate my speech patterns online, and I talk like a freak sometimes, too. <BR/><BR/>I've read in numerous writing books that you should know the rules and feel free to break them if you know <I>why</I> you're breaking them.<BR/><BR/>I usually do, so I don't feel too guilty. <BR/><BR/>You bust me up with your serial commas, though, Brenda.<BR/><BR/>Now I'm gonna leave the computer, re-boot the laundry, and vacuum my living room [which isn't what I <I>want</I> to be doing at all, but I have some friends coming over, and the house is a mess!]Shelbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07872241263679720990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post-1139525040428405372006-02-09T17:44:00.000-05:002006-02-09T17:44:00.000-05:00Here's a quote - apparently it's called the Oxford...Here's a quote - apparently it's called the Oxford comma here because the Oxford University Press used it as standard. <BR/><BR/>'The Oxford Comma - standard US English usage is to put a comma before the and in lists of items, e.g. red, white, and blue; standard British English usage, however, is to leave it out, e.g: red, white and blue. More subtly "etc." (et cetera, i.e. and so on) should have a comma before it in US English; it shouldn't in British English.'<BR/><BR/>My husband makes fantastic Yorkshire Pudding...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post-1139519200065195352006-02-09T16:06:00.000-05:002006-02-09T16:06:00.000-05:00I don't think it matters if the original is a comp...I don't think it matters if the original is a complete sentence or not. The point is that the original had *no* commas and the comma was inserted after "eats" by mistake, not because whoever inserted it wanted to change the purport of the comment. Or that's my assumption, at least. Having an additional comma after "shoots" would mean that a second comma had been inserted in error as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post-1139518827743778612006-02-09T16:00:00.000-05:002006-02-09T16:00:00.000-05:00As I recall, Debra, it was a sign in a zoo: "Panda...As I recall, Debra, it was a sign in a zoo: "Panda. Eats, shoots and leaves." Something like that. Not a complete sentence. So do you see, now, what I mean?<BR/><BR/>Thank you for supporting serial commas. They need all the friends they can get.Brenda Coulterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13528691681455659296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post-1139517800894543072006-02-09T15:43:00.000-05:002006-02-09T15:43:00.000-05:00The joke is that some functionally illiterate indi...<I>The joke is that some functionally illiterate individual placed a comma after "eats", changing the meaning of the sentence and inciting an otherwise mild-mannered panda to violence. But if one meant to convey that a panda will eat, and then shoot, and then leave, the serial comma becomes necessary.</I><BR/><BR/>But this wouldn't work. The text of the original would have read something like, "A panda eats shoots and leaves." A comman is inserted after "eats" by accident, not because one wanted to convey the new meaning, with "shoots" and "leaves" now understood as verbs. It's a simple typographical error. It would not make sense at all to insert a comma also after "shoots" and thus make the punctuation of the sentence with its new, unintentional meaning more clear. And in fact Truss would have rightly been condemned had she inserted the serial comma. <BR/><BR/>As to whether she includes the serial comma elsewhere in the book, I don't remember. I am myself a proponent of them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post-1139517384575544372006-02-09T15:36:00.000-05:002006-02-09T15:36:00.000-05:00Yeah, Katie, it's beginning to look like a Brit th...Yeah, Katie, it's beginning to look like a Brit thing. They are very dear people, but they're wrong about so many things. Yorkshire Pudding, for instance, and cricket instead of baseball. And they see "colours" and taste "flavours."<BR/><BR/>Now I'd better duck and run before Neal comes along. ;-)Brenda Coulterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13528691681455659296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post-1139516745984176772006-02-09T15:25:00.000-05:002006-02-09T15:25:00.000-05:00I've never read the book, but I love serial commas...I've never read the book, but I love serial commas. That's the one thing that drives me nuts about "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe." The title simply begs for another comma!Katie Hart - Pinterest Managerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14892763965326103296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post-1139515146062194642006-02-09T14:59:00.000-05:002006-02-09T14:59:00.000-05:00Oh, sorry. Blogger appears to be dropping the comm...Oh, sorry. Blogger appears to be dropping the comments into my mailbox out of order today. I wasn't ignoring you, Valmarie; I just didn't see you up there.<BR/><BR/>So those of you who have the book, please speak up: Does the author or does she not endorse the serial comma? From what I can tell, she eschews them.Brenda Coulterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13528691681455659296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9791523.post-1139514841100979992006-02-09T14:54:00.000-05:002006-02-09T14:54:00.000-05:00Yes, the title refers to a joke. But there is more...Yes, the title refers to a joke. But there is more to this, Horatio, than is dreamt of in your philosophy. (Please excuse me. I really could <I>not</I> stop myself.)<BR/><BR/>A panda's diet consists of bamboo shoots and leaves. You know this, of course, my good Horatio; I am merely explaining to those who might not. The joke is that some functionally illiterate individual placed a comma after "eats", changing the meaning of the sentence and inciting an otherwise mild-mannered panda to violence. But if one <I>meant</I> to convey that a panda will eat, and then shoot, and then leave, the serial comma becomes necessary.<BR/><BR/>Your point, however, is well taken. Maybe the title wasn't meant to tell us anything about pandas. Perhaps it was meant only to quote the silly, ungrammatical sign. But if that were the case, then we would see serial commas aplenty in the book--and we do not. (At least, I don't see them in my little calendar that features a daily quote from the book.)<BR/><BR/>But I'll agree with you that the lady is very funny. I do plan to read the book, and her second one, as well. Even if she is a serial comma killer.Brenda Coulterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13528691681455659296noreply@blogger.com